Curse

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Okay so let me just start by saying the following:
I'm bored with the Cookie Cutters, even bored with adding my own varients to the cookie cutters. I know they are the standard for a reason, I really do. If I was GvGing, I would run them, but this is for fun, in Random Arena or Alliance Battles. Please refrain from TRASHING the idea, just comment on rather I'm wrong, right, or if there is a better way of doing what I am trying to accomplish.

The Theory: Using 2 Class's that can achieve Criticals on Demand, in conjunction with an unspecced scythe. (criticals will result in max damage regardless of the amount of points in to scythe attacks)
Critical damage is: The weapon's maximum damage multiplied by the square root of 2 (1.414...)

Class Choices: Assasin/Warrior, both class's have skills that will make critical strikes happen either more frequenly or flat out when ever you use Skill "X"

Build:
Critical Strikes: 12+1+1
Deadly Arts: 12+1
1) Palm Strike
2) Critical Strike
3) Malicious Strike
4) Wild Blow
5) Impale
Possible utility skills: 3 slots left
1) Way of the Master
Not my first choice, only helps between spikes when your doing no damage, but with high critical strikes, it could really make the difference
2) Disrupting Dagger
A good on demand interupt, for RA but possibly useful in AB
3) Deadly Paradox
Useful for getting more crits out quickly use after Frenzy>spike>deadly paradox to cancel frenzy if needed.
4) Siphon Speed
Increased Movement speed, and pre snare before you land Palm. Also good for slowing two people, you Siphon 1 and use the increased speed to get to and than palm strike the target
5) Frenzy
Increased Attack speed for spiking (lack of sustainable damage makes frenzy preferable over flail, even with a cripple, it only needs to last the lenght of the spike.

I have no heal (rez sig can be brougth for RA obviously) and I have no condtion removal or hex removal. I know that. But there were 3 slots left, and nothing says I can't drop another skill from the 5 bar spike.

Just trying to flesh this out, and could use some pointers. Also, I may be seriously overestimating the damage of full crit spikes from a scythe.

Seraphim of Chaos · Jun 30, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

how does palm strike synergize with this at all

Ariena Najea · Jun 30, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Palm Strike allows him to quickly use Critical Strike? The obvious problem with this is that Dual attacks are dagger only, and cannot be used with scythes. Malicious Strike is a good pick though, since the PS will cripple and meet the prereq for more damage. Wild Blow works, and Impale isn't bad.

It is a good theory, but in practice, it simply isn't an effective spike.

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

how does palm strike synergize with this at all

Well, (and I'm trying not to be rude)

It cripples, which is great for a non Knock Down spike.
It counts as an Off-Hand Attack, so it allows me to go directly into Critical Strike, which requires an Off-Hand Attack.

So in Short, it starts the chain, by allowing me to use the Rediculously powerful Critical Strike attack without having to toss out 2 non crit attacks just to be able to use it. I chose it because it allows me to do this, while still adding damage and a cripple.

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Palm Strike allows him to quickly use Critical Strike? The obvious problem with this is that Dual attacks are dagger only, and cannot be used with scythes. Malicious Strike is a good pick though, since the PS will cripple and meet the prereq for more damage. Wild Blow works, and Impale isn't bad.

It is a good theory, but in practice, it simply isn't an effective spike.

Oh damn, see this is why I ask

I knew, I could abuse no scythe points, by only spamming crits, but didnt realize that all Dual Attacks are Dagger only. I read the wiki, but it doesn't mention that Fact.

Thank you for clarifying, oh well back to the drawing bored.

I'm still working on my Rage of the Ntoku infinate hammer spike

(never plan to actualy manage it, but its fun to waist hours drinking and trying)

Seraphim of Chaos · Jun 30, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

Well, (and I'm trying not to be rude)

It cripples, which is great for a non Knock Down spike.
It counts as an Off-Hand Attack, so it allows me to go directly into Critical Strike, which requires an Off-Hand Attack.

So in Short, it starts the chain, by allowing me to use the Rediculously powerful Critical Strike attack without having to toss out 2 non crit attacks just to be able to use it. I chose it because it allows me to do this, while still adding damage and a cripple.

the cripple length is not nearly as long as it used to be. at 14 critical strikes, it only cripples for 5 seconds which isn't even equivalent to its downtime. second, critical strike is not "Rediculously powerful" even at high dagger spec. you have 0 dagger spec, now do the math. Your "spike" is also flawed. the deep wound takes 1 second to cast, and you have no IAS but scythes attack ridiculously slow. all the while, if you don't crit, you do what? roughly 5 damage to a 60 AL target?

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

the cripple length is not nearly as long as it used to be. at 14 critical strikes, it only cripples for 5 seconds which isn't even equivalent to its downtime. second, critical strike is not "Rediculously powerful" even at high dagger spec. you have 0 dagger spec, now do the math. Your "spike" is also flawed. the deep wound takes 1 second to cast, and you have no IAS but scythes attack ridiculously slow. all the while, if you don't crit, you do what? roughly 5 damage to a 60 AL target?

Um, we already determined it doesnt work, the guy above you pointed it out, without sounding arrogant or pompous I might add.

but to discuss what you put (Discuss)

the cripple only needs to last the lenght of the spike, and its more about allowing me to use a duel attack (critical strike) and proc the critical from malicious strike due to them suffering from a condition (cripple) I dont see a better option for starting an on deman Crit spike. I really don't. And you have not offered one either. You are simply thrashing my build, which you are welcome to do, even though I asked nicely that you did not. Its a free internet so to speak.

I have no IAS? I have frenzy listed in the Utility skills list, as a possible IAS, and I realize that I need one, only asked if frenzy was the best for this build. I will obviously have an IAS

Deepwound takes 1 second to cast? Um its a finisher, I am hoping to Kill them with it, and they do not have to be in range of me for it to hit. I spike the Crits and impale to finish. siphone speed and catch back up while my spike recharges, way of the master plus 14 critical strikes will result in a 47% chance to crit with the scythe while I am waiting to spike again.

and Critical strike is Rediculous powerful in "this build" in that it crits a scythe for max damage and regains energy with a relatively low recast. I think you are confusing Critical Strike with Critical Strikes

All in all, the theory is not as bad as you make it out to be man, and there is no need to be so arrogant on a forum, especially when I started off by saying that I am only tryign to make something work for fun. If you don't have a suggestion, feel free not to comment. But please stroke your E-Pween somewhere else. I already know there are holes in the build.

Funny thing is the only hole that really was there, you didn't even see. Your comments were mostly just a lack of understanding of how simple skills work and synergize compounded with the fact that you were in such a hurry to trash me, you failed to realize that Critical Strike is an attack, and that Critical Strikes is an attribute. Half of what you had to say was based on that misunderstanding.

Seraphim of Chaos · Jun 30, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

wait what

I misunderstood critical strikes with critical strike?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

and Critical strike is Rediculous powerful in "this build" in that it crits a scythe for max damage and regains energy with a relatively low recast. I think you are confusing Critical Strike with Critical Strikes

Reread this

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

Funny thing is the only hole that really was there, you didn't even see. Your comments were mostly just a lack of understanding of how simple skills work and synergize compounded with the fact that you were in such a hurry to trash me, you failed to realize that Critical Strike is an attack, and that Critical Strikes is an attribute. Half of what you had to say was based on that misunderstanding.

and then this

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

Um, we already determined it doesnt work, the guy above you pointed it out

And now read this

ok yeah I misunderstood it, because I think that I can use the skill critical strike on a scythe even though two people told me that I couldn't and I even confirmed it myself in the opening statement of my ridiculously long response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

Deepwound takes 1 second to cast?

Yeah impale does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinygod

Um its a finisher, I am hoping to Kill them with it, and they do not have to be in range of me for it to hit.

Ok let's get this straight. Your "spike" revolves around Palm Strike, an attack skill that doesn't work with scythes, and damage that is only useful 47% of the time. And to top it all off, you have a finisher that takes one second to cast and requires a dual attack that apparently I don't understand.

Killamus · Jun 30, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Also, you do understand that the max damage of something is equivalent to a starter weapon in terms of damage until you've reached it's requirement? (Shields and focus items are the exception, as their armor/energy is usually just halved until you reach it).

So, for instance, your dagger build wouldn't be doing 17*sqrt(2), it'd be doing 3*sqrt(2), until you hit the dagger's requirement.

Still Number One · Jun 30, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Yea if you plan on using a PvP character with a req 9 scythe, you wont be reaching that 41 max dmg of the scythe. I just tested it and wild blow does 8 damage. So unless you plan on using a scythe with the most damage possible with 0 requirement, have fun critting for 8 damage.

Killed u man · Jun 30, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

Also, you do understand that the max damage of something is equivalent to a starter weapon in terms of damage until you've reached it's requirement? (Shields and focus items are the exception, as their armor/energy is usually just halved until you reach it).

So, for instance, your dagger build wouldn't be doing 17*sqrt(2), it'd be doing 3*sqrt(2), until you hit the dagger's requirement.

Yeah, I was reading through this intire thread, wondering why noone mentioned this.

Scythe crit UNSPECCED is about 12 I believe. You're confusing Critical Hit with potential max damage.
The critical hit is the maximum damage you can do AT A CERTAIN ATTRIBUTE.

The potential max damage of a sythe is only reached when the attribute is maxed , which is 21. (20 + 1; 20%)

So even if you crit 100% of the time, with a Q9 unspecced scythe, you'll still nearly do no dps.

The critical hit keeps going up the more you spec into your scythe mastery (Well, technicly, it stays the starter damage untill 9, then it jumps up).

Once you reach the requirement, the critical hit still goes up by a few damage each point U spec into the mastery attribute. A 12 Scythe Mastery Crit will be more than a 9 Scythe Mastery Crit.

From: http://www.oildrip.com/calc/index.php

Scythe Mastery 9: 60AL, no penetration, 15^50, no Vamp = 51.4 Critical Hit Damage.

Scythe Mastery 12: 60AL, no penetration, 15^50, no Vamp = 66.7 Critical Hit Damage.

Scythe Mastery 16: 60AL, no penetration, 15^50, no Vamp = 76.6 Critical Hit Damage

In other words, getting the optimal DPS (highest) is not only a question of maximizing critical chances, it's also about sorting out the perfect mastery attribute.

For example: 3 more critical Strikes will gain you 3% more critical hits, yet 3 more Scythe mastery will gain you 15 damage per critical hit.

It doesn't matter too much, but in reality, you will have to calculate which one will be more beneficial. (And I think xx Mastery > critical strikes)

Also, your critical hit chance also increases with more mastery (as I recall correctly), thus just max out your attribute first, before maxing out critical strikes.

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

the cripple length is not nearly as long as it used to be. at 14 critical strikes, it only cripples for 5 seconds which isn't even equivalent to its downtime. second, critical strike is not "Rediculously powerful" even at high dagger spec. you have 0 dagger spec, now do the math. Your "spike" is also flawed. the deep wound takes 1 second to cast, and you have no IAS but scythes attack ridiculously slow. all the while, if you don't crit, you do what? roughly 5 damage to a 60 AL target?

Re-read this, you are takling about my dagger spec, for Critcal stike, than say I have 0 so do the math.

why not jsut say, dual attacks don't work with scythes.

Or point out the fact that a scythe doesnt do its max critical damage unless you mastery pointes into it.

those are the two things I needed to know. You attacked everything but that.

My topic title is freaking Question about critical strikes. I read the Wiki, and it says nothing about critical damage being based on weapon mastery, only the chance to crit is based on mastery points. It also says nothing about only daggers being able to (USE dual attack skills) Obviously a scythe cant attack twice in a dual attack, I thought perhaps it could atleast gain the critical.

My point is not that my build is good, it never was. That is why I posted it here hoping for a way to make it work. I got what I needed, which is that Scythes cant use dual attacks, and that crit damage is based on weapon mastery.

(Im at work right now, and was hoping to flesh out a build to try before I got home)

My point to you however, is that if you need to learn to give criticism without coming off like a total F.Wad. seriously, read every other post on this topic. No one else came off that way, and yet they are the ones who all had actual suggestions or important information.

No one will ever take you seriously, until you learn this. So until than you equate to nothing more than a troll.

To everyone else: Thanks for the tips. I'll see what i can do about re assigning some points into scythe. But at that point, i'm lapsing a back into the old A/D Scythe Spammer. Which is what I was hoping to avoid.

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Thanks for the link to Oildrip by the way, that was very helpful I have been looking for a Damage Calculator that is this easy to use.

*lemming* · Jun 30, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Isn't there a rule about testing your bar before you post on guru?

tinygod · Jun 30, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

Also, you do understand that the max damage of something is equivalent to a starter weapon in terms of damage until you've reached it's requirement? (Shields and focus items are the exception, as their armor/energy is usually just halved until you reach it).

So, for instance, your dagger build wouldn't be doing 17*sqrt(2), it'd be doing 3*sqrt(2), until you hit the dagger's requirement.

yes I realized that.

What I wasnt sure of, was rather or not Critical Hits by-passed this problem, by dealing the damage regardles of requirement.

The wiki says:
"The damage from a critical hit with a weapon is based on weapon's maximum damage. the exact damage of a critical hit is based on a simple formula: the wapons maximum damage multipled by the square root of 2 (1.414...).

I gues the problem was I misunderstood what maximum damage means. I took it to mean the maximum damage the weapon was capable of. or the given range. For instance the scythe is listed as 9 - 41, so I thought it meant 41. I see now that a weaopns maximum damage is actualy changed based on attributes. I always thought that having less attributes than the requirement meant that you simply did a percentage of the maximum damage as a down side, I didint realize that it actualy lowered the maximum damage for calculation purposes.

it was a simple mistake, But It wasn't like I didint realize stats would effect the damage the weapon was putting out. Of course I realized that.

Div · Jul 01, 2009, 02:17 AM // 02:17

I think the question's been answered and that the mistake is corrected. Next time test your builds before posting so people don't call you out for making a dumb mistake and then you get all defensive about it.